[Jonathan Stanley]

OK,
Saturday morning I am planing on trying my luck and making my first damascus billet.
But I have never every done anything like this so I am clueless about what materials I will need.
For the metal I have a old chainsaw blade.
I have seen people making chainsaw blade damascus billets by hand and I wanted to try.
Dose any body here have any experience with making this kind of damascus?
What are the steps I should I take?
How would I go about the whole posses?
How do I tell when the billet is at welding temperature?

I know this is a ton of questions to ask.

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Jonathan Stanley.

[BrionTomberlin]

Johnathan I have never done damascus with a chainsaw chain, but I know that you can. I would say make sure that the chain is clean and make sure it is in a tight bundle. I am sure people with more knowledge of this than I will chime in.

I admire your enthusiasm. Good luck.
Brion

[Russell Roosevelt]

Jonathan,I have tried chain saw chain twice, and had trouble keeping it together. I suggest you start with cable, no plated,galvanized, or stainless. The cable that works the best is the Improved plowshare steel (1070) and the Extra Improved plowshare (1084). Using this material you don't have to guess on how to heat treat. You might check locally to see if you can find some. If you cant find any send me an email and I will look to see what I have.

Good Luck on the Chain

Russell

[Jonathan Stanley]

Thanks guys!
I just saw a video in you tube and the guy starts his damascus by dipping it inn something.
Do y'all know what that's all about?

[Jim Crowell]

Dear Johnathan,

Chainsaw chain is usually oily and dirty. I would recommend cleaning it in kerosene or some other solvent: BE CAREFUL very combustible and toxic fumes. Keep away from fire and do not breath. The "billets" I have made were done as follows: Clean the chains/s you want to use. Fold them up in as small and tight a bundle as you can - about 4" - 6". Then wire the bundle together and weld a work handle on to the bundle so you have something to hold on to. It is real floppy at this point. Put the bundle in the fire and "cook" off any remaining solvents, etc. Warm it up to a nice forging temperature and then use 20 Mule Team Borax as a flux. (This is a laundry additive and you can get it at the supermarket. Use it straight out of the box.) I keep my Borax in a metal shaker with holes to sprinkle the Borax evenly. Now bring the metal up hotter and hotter until the surface looks "wet". This is welding temperature and you need to LIGHTLY start hammering/ welding the loose billet together. Start at the end farthest away from you so you do not burn all the wire of before you get some of it welded. It takes a while because the chain is made of so many pieces and even though bundled it is still "fragile" and can fall apart while welding if you are not careful. Flux the billet with the Borax each time you put the billet back in the fire after hammering it. You need a good wire brush to brush the billet after hammering and before fluxing and putting back in the fire. Once you get the billet "stuck together" it is easier and just like welding up bars but you have to make it into a bar first then fold and weld like a "normal" billet.

You may want to try welding two or three bars together before trying the chain so you get the hang of the welding first. The fire is very bright and you should wear welding glasses that you can get at a welding supply.

Hope this helps,

Jim Crowell MS

[justin carnecchia]

Jonathan, Have you thought about trying cable? It is a good place to start learning about welding, but doesn't require the folding that is typically associated with damascus. Without a power hammer or forging press drawing and folding can be quite difficult. Not impossible but definitely a lot of hard work. Anyway, just something to think about. Cable is usually pretty easy to find, and given the right type can make a decent blade. Good luck with whatever you try, I believe that the trying part is the most important, so you are off to a good start. -Justin

[Jonathan Stanley]

Thank y'all so much!
That really helped!
I think I will start with chainsaw blade because thats all I have right now but I will definitely look for some cable.

[BrionTomberlin]

Thank you Jim, that is really good information. Another thing you might try Johnathan is getting some mild steel from Lowes or Home depot. I think it is 1018 also known as welding steel. Use a couple pieces of the 1084 you have and sandwich a piece of the mild steel between them. The 1084 is 1 inch wide, so get some 1" wide mild steel in 1/8" or 1/4" thickness and start welding them together using Jim's method. They should weld very well. I would start with four inch long pieces. This should give you a billet four inches long by 1" wide with three layers. This will allow you to get the feel of forge welding and how this works. You could also sandwich the 1084 between the 1018 and make a san main billet. Have fun and be careful.
Brion

[Jonathan Stanley]

Great!
I had never thought of that before, that was very helpful.
I do know what your tanking about with the steel and will have to try that.
do I have to grind the coating off these pieces before forging?

[Cheyenne Walker]

Jonathan, I think Lowes or Sutherlands should carry cable that you can buy by the foot. Check in the section where they sell ropes and chains. But remember what Russell said, make sure it is not plated, galvanized, or stainless.

[Jonathan Stanley]

Thanks!
I'll have to look for that when I go to get the bar-stock that Mr. Brion was talking about.

[Steve Morley]

Jonathan Stanley, on 10 May 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Thanks guys!
I just saw a video in you tube and the guy starts his damascus by dipping it inn something.
Do y'all know what that's all about?

Maybe someone has already mentioned this, but I think what you are referring to is dipping the billet into a saturated solution of borax (in hot water). Hot water actually dissolves quite a bit of borax--cold water not so much, it seems. Not sure if this is still the recommended practice within this community (or if it ever was), but some recommend it.

Also, I would agree with what other folks are saying about starting with something simpler like San Mai. I have very limited experience, but I was making a billet of 1045/1095/1045 yesterday and feeling pretty good about it (and myself). Then I left the billet in the forge a little too long (well, a lot too long) and totally destroyed it--burned it right in half. Luckily, I hadn't spent too much time on it (just hours, not days). If I had been 3/4 of my way through a damascus billet I would have had much more time/$ invested and it would have been tougher to take...

Good luck this weekend!

[Cheyenne Walker]

If you have no means of welding a handle to the billet, how difficult is it to forge the billet using only tongs? Also, what kind of wire would you use to hold the steel together during the forge welding process and what thickness of wire is used?

[Dale Huckabee]

Chain saw chain isn't all that hard to weld. The second billet I ever welded was chain saw chain. Do it exactly like Jim said. Use some black iron (bailing) wire to wrap it up. When it first starts to weld, it will look like a sponge. Holes everywhere. Keep welding and eventually you will get a really neat billet. I've found that Oregon chains make excellent blades.

Go for it and good luck!

Dale

[Jonathan Stanley]

OK, I think I will, Dale.
I got rained out today but I am going to try again tomorrow.
I can't wait to try all the great ideas that I've gotten from y'all.

[Jonathan Stanley]

OK,
Using the great advice y'all gave me I forged my first bar of damascus today.
It went well and welded together and stuff like that until I got it to a bar shape.... then I ran into 2 problems.
1. I found out pretty soon that the I did not use enough chainsaw blades and so it was not thick enough.
2. When it got to a rough bar form it developed 2 cracks all the way down the length of the bar. When I tried to fix it it just got worse because it acted like a seesaw.... hit it on one side and the crack on the other side would open up more, hit it on the other side and the other crack would open even more.
I stopped there and shut the forge down because I did not want to waste all the work from the previous 2 hours.
Now I will post in steps what I did from beginning to end in hopes that y'all will see where I went wrong.
1. Since I did not have kerosene I decided to dip the blades in plain unleaded gas.
2. After the blades where pretty clean I lit the forge and prepared for forging.(IE I got all the hammers I needed, got my safety stuff exetera.)
2. Before I hit it withe the hammer I put it in the fire till the surface looked wet and it was slightly dripping.(almost like potters clay)
3. Then I took it out of the forge and while it was still SUPPER hot I caked it over with borax.(then I stuck it back in the forge)
4. I took it out when it looked wet again an started lightly hitting it with a 1/2 pound hammer.
5. After every hammering I would cover it with borax again and then put it back in the fire until it looked wet.
6. After it was firmly welded together it looked like a sponge in the shape on a 1/2" x 1/2" x 6" bar.
7. At this point I switched to a 3 pound hammer but I still didn't go full throttle.(if you know what I mean)
I just kept on forging in this manner until I noticed those crack and then I stopped to ask and see if y'all could help.

Hope y'all can help,
Jonathan.

[BrionTomberlin]

Johnathan it sounds like you have an area that did not weld. Are the cracks in the same place on both sides? I generally do not cake the borax on. Just sprinkle from a metal shaker like Jim does. I also apply the borax when the billet is at a dark red heat. Then allow it to come up to welding heat. I also will use a wire brush to clean scale and things from the billet. It is possible that you got scale or something trapped in the billet when welding it up.
As far as correcting the cracks. Well you could try bringing the billet back up to heat, wire brush the billet especially in the crack areas. Then sprinkle more borax on and bring back up to welding heat. Go lightly and try to weld up small sections at a time.
Good luck.
Brion

[Jason Russell]

I just think that it's really inspiring to see a 13 yr old going at it like this. Most 13 yr olds have other things, but knife making on their minds. Don't know anything about the topic. but Forge On!!!! Jonathan.

[Michael_Arguello]

I second the last comment..Great that a young man is interested in knife making an actually experimenting with it..Rock on JS

[Scott McGhee]

Another method is soaking the billet overnight in kerosene and then welding as is. Be careful there will be a lot of flame in the beginning. I think the soot from the kerosene acts as a flux and it get everywhere there is an opening in the billet and does not leave inclusions. I did not trust this method until I tried it.