[Mariano Gugliotta]

Today I was talking with a colleague who told me that he began to use
kerosene in stead of flux in his damascus welding.
He told me that he stacks the steel and before placing it in the forge
he completely submerge it in kerosene.
Of course today I went and I bought a gallon of kerosene
But first thought about asking in the forum, perhaps some one has some
experience in this area.

The question is .... anyone knows about the kerosene method?

Saludos

Mariano

[BrionTomberlin]

Hello Mariano. I have not used that method, YET, I do plan to try it. At the Spring Hammer In, J.W. Randall gave a lecture and demonstration on advanced damascus. He now uses the kerosene method because of issues with the borax that we are able to get. According to J.W. he very few welding problems with the kerosene. We here is the states have been experiencing more problems getting good welds consistently. Some people, J.W. for one believe it may be due to the borax and the formula being changed. J.w. says that the kerosene of course ignites immediately and deposits a carbon layer which protects the steel so that it is almost a dry weld. I am going to have to try it and see. Let us know your experiences and anybody else that uses it, please pass along your thoughts.
Best regards Mariano.
Brion

[Lyman Gerrish]

Hey Mariano I think this would be a good subject for your next video.
I am very interested in getting away from borax. I'm thinking that kerosene would work well for cleaning a batch of 1" steel cable I've been sitting on.
Kerosene is a solvent isn't it ?
The last time I used it was in a old hurricane lantern when I was kid.

[JD Smith]

Hmmm...Interesting. I've used kerosene and WD40 in closed dry welds, as in a containment box for mosaic type stuff, but never in an "open" welding situation(a regular billett)I'm having some trouble understanding the chemistry and physics behind the principles that allow a weld with such a procedure. How do the metals in use weld when covered with carbon???

[Lyman Gerrish]

My guess is carbon is allready in the steel part of the chemical make up, thus weldable, the scale from oxidation is a foreign substance maybe not foreign but a by product and is not weldable.
that's just a guess

[JD Smith]

Sure carbon is a part of the steel, but unlike what sits on the surface in the process in question, that carbon is in a solid state solution within the steel itself.

[John White]

Under advice and encouragement from Ron Newton, and after some "white line" problems on final welds with anhydrous borax, I switched to kerosene late last year.

After tacking a stacked billet , and welding on a handle as usual, I stick the billet into a metal bucket of kerosene, entirely submerging the billet. When the billet is placed into the forge( running at 2315 F), the kerosene immediately flames off, leaving an even layer of soot (carbon?) over the entire billet. I do not remove the billet from the forge, or even disturb it, until the forge comes back up to 2300F, whereupon I weld as usual. No splatter, by the way.

I cool the billet, cut, clean, stack, and tack. Then, back into the kerosene, and weld again. So far, I've had only clean, essentially perfect welds in this manner. I believe I can tell that the finished billets are "cleaner" than the" clean" welds I used to get with flux.

I'm sure I can find a way to mess this method up, there always seems to be a new way to make a mistake, but I'm real happy so far....

John White

P.S. I have seen no real theoretical explanation of the kerosene method. It clearly works, and has, for me, some advantages. I plan to discuss this with Kevin Cashen at Blade. I'm sure there are well understood factors at work, here. I just don't know what they are, myself.

[Lyman Gerrish]

JD Smith, on 29 May 2010 - 12:39 PM, said:

Sure carbon is a part of the steel, but unlike what sits on the surface in the process in question, that carbon is in a solid state solution within the steel itself.

I wonder if the steel incorporates that carbon at the right temp letting it migrate threw out the billet.
If so that could be another small bonus in using kerosene
these are just my thoughts and not based in anything scientific

[JD Smith]

I'm just trying to think this through. Usually if I don't want metals to stick together I'll lampblack them with an acetylene flame. that's why this sound so strange to me. One can't argue if it's working for other smiths out there, but I'd really like to know the principle behind it. If I know that, I can play with it being better informed about the science behind it.
That white line thing on the last weld,we've all seen those. It's an area of decarb from the forge weld. If the last weld is not done too close to final dimensions(which it shouldn't be)the line will dissapear, as the carbon will have had time to re-migrate into that area.
Anyway, I'm sure we'd all love to eliminate the "self-destucting forge" from using borax. The whole thing sounds like a dry weld. Has anyone tried this using stainless steels yet?

[Mariano Gugliotta]

Well it seems I'm not the only one trying to get out of flux.

I have long used a mixture of borax and boric acid applying it on the stack with WD40.

I will test the system of kerosene on Monday, I have a W pattern waiting to be welded.

It would be nice to know what chemical effect occurs when using kerosene ...

Saludos and thanks to all

Mariano

[Manuel Quiroga]

Really interesting... I'm gonna have to try it too.

[Rick Baum]

Having absolutely no experience with making Damascus, the answer may be totally obvious but... Does anyone know or have any experience with "how Borax vs. kerosene affects performance of a blade"? Is there a difference in edge holding or toughness?

Thanks,
Rick

[JD Smith]

Rick Baum, on 30 May 2010 - 02:14 PM, said:

Having absolutely no experience with making Damascus, the answer may be totally obvious but... Does anyone know or have any experience with "how Borax vs. kerosene affects performance of a blade"? Is there a difference in edge holding or toughness?

Thanks,
Rick

I can't imagine that it would have any effect whatsoever, save the possibility that the additional absorbsion of carbon might affect the steel somewhat and NOT in a good way. I have no idea how much additional carbon gets produced, where it ends up, how much of that is absorbed by migration etc... a lot of questions.

[John White]

Spoke with Kevin Cashen re kerosene welding at blade. The visible soot(carbon) which covers the billet right after the kero flames off disappears as the billet heats up. The billet acquires that "translucent" yellow glow as the temp climbs toward 2300 F.
Kevin suggested that at those temperatures that the carbon was certainly not sitting on the surface in a pure state. He assumed that, depending on the atmosphere in the forge, that it was probably present in the form of CO, or CO2, and as such, might be clinging to the surface as an inert atmosphere, protecting the steel from any free oxygen. I did note that I don't disturb the billet til its ready to weld.

This might be a starting place for a hypothesis about kerosene welding, though I don't know of any testing done.

Again, I don't know of any rigorous examination of welding methods. I do know that damascus welds readily and cleanly by this method.

I'd be interested in any scientific info on damascus welding methods.

John

[Brian Thie]

I find this very interesting.

When using flux, the flux will disolve impurities on the surface and carry them out during the welding process. With the kerosene process, I trust that the billet needs to be perfectly clean as the kerosene only protects the billet and provides no means of disolving surface impurities on the billet. Is this correct?


Thanks
Brian

[John White]

Brian,

I cut, grind clean with used 50 grit, and stack, whether I'm welding with flux or kerosene.

I also grind mill scale off the 1084 before the first weld, so I can't give first hand info on this, but Ron N. and others don't grind off the mill scale from the 1084 before the first weld, and report the same absolutely clean welds. Go figure.

An interesting question is this: if the kerosene welding system works, and it does, then is the theory of flux welding that we all repeat correct, or is something else going on in flux welding?

One thing about flux is that, while it may help squirt out impurities, the flux itself is a gross impurity that has to be gotten out.

John

[Brian Thie]

Thanks for the reply John. This concept is becomming even more interesting. As you stated, this concept does indeed make one question what exactly is going on when flux welding -- or any forge welding for that matter.

It just goes to show that even after centuries of a tried and proven method, there is always room to learn more.

Anyone know who came up with this idea and if it was a accidental finding or an experiment?

Thanks
Brian

[Mike Krall]

JD Smith, on 29 May 2010 - 09:56 AM, said:

Hmmm...Interesting. I've used kerosene and WD40 in closed dry welds, as in a containment box for mosaic type stuff, but never in an "open" welding situation(a regular billett)I'm having some trouble understanding the chemistry and physics behind the principles that allow a weld with such a procedure. How do the metals in use weld when covered with carbon???

JD,

The kerosene/Wd-40 don't burn inside the can, they burn when they volitize, expand and come out of the can?

Mike

[Robert Dekelbaum]

This is one I've also heard about but never tried. That said, I've got 5 gallons of diesel in a can that I could use to give it a shot...I too am curious about why it works though...I hate it when I can't explain why something happens in my shop.

-d