Kerosene Vs Flux ?
Posted 28 May 2010 - 06:21 PM
kerosene in stead of flux in his damascus welding.
He told me that he stacks the steel and before placing it in the forge
he completely submerge it in kerosene.
Of course today I went and I bought a gallon of kerosene
But first thought about asking in the forum, perhaps some one has some
experience in this area.
The question is .... anyone knows about the kerosene method?
Posted 28 May 2010 - 08:48 PM
Best regards Mariano.
Anvil Top Custom Knives
#3 Guest_Joe Mandt_*
Posted 28 May 2010 - 10:03 PM
Posted 29 May 2010 - 08:04 AM
I am very interested in getting away from borax. I'm thinking that kerosene would work well for cleaning a batch of 1" steel cable I've been sitting on.
Kerosene is a solvent isn't it ?
The last time I used it was in a old hurricane lantern when I was kid.
Posted 29 May 2010 - 08:56 AM
Posted 29 May 2010 - 11:51 AM
After tacking a stacked billet , and welding on a handle as usual, I stick the billet into a metal bucket of kerosene, entirely submerging the billet. When the billet is placed into the forge( running at 2315 F), the kerosene immediately flames off, leaving an even layer of soot (carbon?) over the entire billet. I do not remove the billet from the forge, or even disturb it, until the forge comes back up to 2300F, whereupon I weld as usual. No splatter, by the way.
I cool the billet, cut, clean, stack, and tack. Then, back into the kerosene, and weld again. So far, I've had only clean, essentially perfect welds in this manner. I believe I can tell that the finished billets are "cleaner" than the" clean" welds I used to get with flux.
I'm sure I can find a way to mess this method up, there always seems to be a new way to make a mistake, but I'm real happy so far....
P.S. I have seen no real theoretical explanation of the kerosene method. It clearly works, and has, for me, some advantages. I plan to discuss this with Kevin Cashen at Blade. I'm sure there are well understood factors at work, here. I just don't know what they are, myself.
Posted 29 May 2010 - 12:16 PM
I wonder if the steel incorporates that carbon at the right temp letting it migrate threw out the billet.
If so that could be another small bonus in using kerosene
these are just my thoughts and not based in anything scientific
Posted 29 May 2010 - 03:11 PM
That white line thing on the last weld,we've all seen those. It's an area of decarb from the forge weld. If the last weld is not done too close to final dimensions(which it shouldn't be)the line will dissapear, as the carbon will have had time to re-migrate into that area.
Anyway, I'm sure we'd all love to eliminate the "self-destucting forge" from using borax. The whole thing sounds like a dry weld. Has anyone tried this using stainless steels yet?
Posted 29 May 2010 - 06:46 PM
I have long used a mixture of borax and boric acid applying it on the stack with WD40.
I will test the system of kerosene on Monday, I have a W pattern waiting to be welded.
It would be nice to know what chemical effect occurs when using kerosene ...
Saludos and thanks to all
Posted 30 May 2010 - 11:14 AM
Posted 30 May 2010 - 02:10 PM
I can't imagine that it would have any effect whatsoever, save the possibility that the additional absorbsion of carbon might affect the steel somewhat and NOT in a good way. I have no idea how much additional carbon gets produced, where it ends up, how much of that is absorbed by migration etc... a lot of questions.
Posted 08 June 2010 - 05:29 PM
Kevin suggested that at those temperatures that the carbon was certainly not sitting on the surface in a pure state. He assumed that, depending on the atmosphere in the forge, that it was probably present in the form of CO, or CO2, and as such, might be clinging to the surface as an inert atmosphere, protecting the steel from any free oxygen. I did note that I don't disturb the billet til its ready to weld.
This might be a starting place for a hypothesis about kerosene welding, though I don't know of any testing done.
Again, I don't know of any rigorous examination of welding methods. I do know that damascus welds readily and cleanly by this method.
I'd be interested in any scientific info on damascus welding methods.
Posted 09 June 2010 - 07:51 AM
When using flux, the flux will disolve impurities on the surface and carry them out during the welding process. With the kerosene process, I trust that the billet needs to be perfectly clean as the kerosene only protects the billet and provides no means of disolving surface impurities on the billet. Is this correct?
Posted 09 June 2010 - 09:14 AM
I cut, grind clean with used 50 grit, and stack, whether I'm welding with flux or kerosene.
I also grind mill scale off the 1084 before the first weld, so I can't give first hand info on this, but Ron N. and others don't grind off the mill scale from the 1084 before the first weld, and report the same absolutely clean welds. Go figure.
An interesting question is this: if the kerosene welding system works, and it does, then is the theory of flux welding that we all repeat correct, or is something else going on in flux welding?
One thing about flux is that, while it may help squirt out impurities, the flux itself is a gross impurity that has to be gotten out.
Posted 09 June 2010 - 09:43 AM
It just goes to show that even after centuries of a tried and proven method, there is always room to learn more.
Anyone know who came up with this idea and if it was a accidental finding or an experiment?
Posted 09 June 2010 - 10:38 PM
The kerosene/Wd-40 don't burn inside the can, they burn when they volitize, expand and come out of the can?
Posted 12 June 2010 - 06:06 PM