[Michael Mette]

I think this might be my first post on here. Someone on a gun forum that I am on quite a bit asked about repurposing some antique damascus shotgun barrels and forging blades from them. He did say that they were not salvagible as even wall hangers to him anyway. Has anyone on here done this successfully. I think he has never forged a blade before. I guess he wants to start out neck deep.

[Lin Rhea]

My first question would be what is the carbon content in the barrels? He could test a small piece and see if it would harden.

You are right, neck deep.

[Michael Mette]

That was one of the things I was going to tell him to do. I would be worried about ruining the welds that are already established and getting cold shuts or voids of some kind by not fully welding the space that was the interior of the barrel when it is hammered flat or getting enough flux inside it to get all the oxygen out so it will weld easily. Thanks Lin, I will tell him what you said about trying to harden a piece of it. I appreciate the help. We have met a couple of times over the years in Arkansas and at Blade 2007. Nice to get to ask you some more questions. I won't be a stranger on here. Thanks again, Mike

[Steve Culver]

Hi Michael,

I've been researching damascus gun barrels for the last few years. Testing a barrel section to see if it will harden is a good idea. But, probably less than 25% of damascus barrels will have enough carbon to make a decent knife blade.

Many damascus barrels were made of low carbon steels; compared to knife blade steel. Thousands of barrels were made from scrap steel, or a mix of new and scrap steels. Some were made by dumping horse shoe nail stubs (used nails pulled from horse's hooves) into a puddle of molten iron. The steel derived from this process being called Stub Damascus.

Unless your friend knows a lot about damascus barrels, he won't know which ones will be likely to harden and which ones definitely will not. Knowledge of the place where the barrel was made, the time period of the barrel's manufacture and an understanding of the damascus pattern and how it was laid up into a billet can give a clue to the carbon content likely to be found in it. Otherwise, it is definitely a crap shoot and a lot of wasted time testing.

The only real possibility of using barrel damascus in a knife blade is maybe in San Mai construction; using the barrel steel over a carbon steel core.

If your friend has any old barrels that he would like to let go of, I would be interested in obtaining some from him for my research.

[Lin Rhea]

Michael,
The guy is trying to yield to a desire in his gut to make something special out of an object from the past. Knives are a great medium to do that. But, as Steve's post indicates, it would take research from someone who has experience at testing and correctly analyzing the steel. He might be able to do this. I dont know him or who it is. But, the odds are he'll do what Steve said and waste his time and efforts without some experienced help. I'm assuming he is asking for help on that forum you mentioned. Can you direct him to this site, to this thread, and see where it leads? You never know. Obviously some of us are interested and are willing to offer help. Please extend the invitation for us. Lin

[Steve Culver]

Michael,

If he is not an ABS member and also has a membership to this forum, he will not be able to post his questions here. I am a member of several gun forums. If you can post a link to the thread where he is asking these questions, maybe I can go there and answer him directly.

[Steve Watkins]

[Steve here is a link to info on twist barrels, they may be worth contacting. Have a look at the gallery the barrels are beautiful!

http://www.damascus-....com/index.html

[Steve Culver]

Thanks for the link Steve. But, I've know about this site for a long while.

The site belongs to a gentleman named Pete Mikalajunas. Pete is a firearms historian. Pete and I have been conversing about damascus barrels for a couple of years. He has been giving me information that he got from the gun museums in Belgium. I have been providing him with my expertise as a blacksmith to try and discover the techniques used by the barrel welders. There is very little accurate written information on how damascus barrels were made. Much of what is written is incorrect, or at least lacking in details of the process. Pete and I are attempting to discover the actual techniques used by the barrel smiths of old and document the process.

Another site on damascus barrels is at this link. Damascus Knowledge
This site belongs to Dr. Drew Hause. I've been communicating with Dr. Drew as well.

[Gary Mulkey]

Steve,

Since you have been doing the research I would like to ask something. I have heard for years that not all damascus barrels were welded but were sometimes hard soldered. Is there any truth to this or is this just another myth that has arisen over the years?

Gary

[Steve Culver]

Hey Gary,
The barrels were forge welded together. No solder was used on the barrel itself. The confusion may come from the fact that the barrel lump connection, under-ribs and sight ribs were soldered on double barrel guns. So the barrels were actually joined to each other with soldered connections.

The solder used to connect the barrels was not even hard solder. If finishing an old shotgun, you have to be very careful about bluing. You can only blue the gun by the slow rust process. Modern, hot caustic bluing salts will destroy soft solder.

[Gary Mulkey]

Thanks Steve. I'm guessing that part of the myth arose from the fact that the welds were so visable (very obvious where the bars of steel met). What does that say about the strength of a forge weld vs homogenous steel?

Gary

[Steve Culver]

I think we may have hijacked Michael's thread ; though he hasn’t been back for several days.

Quote

What does that say about the strength of a forge weld vs homogenous steel?

I guess that it says that forge welds can be as strong as homogenous steel. Certainly they were sufficiently strong to work in gun barrels.

Quote

I'm guessing that part of the myth arose from the fact that the welds were so visable (very obvious where the bars of steel met).

Actually, there is a lot of variation in how the welds show on different barrels. On some, you can only see the weld lines because of the change in the damascus pattern. Yet, I have seen other barrels were there seems to have been a gap between the twisted ribands that appears to be filled with steel. The barrel smiths didn't have access to powdered steel, so how did they do that?? These variations in what can be seen in damascus barrels is part of what makes it difficult to discern with certainty how they were welded. I know of a damascus barreled shotgun that has exceptionally wide gaps between the ribands. I really need to go have a close look at it while it is still available for viewing.

[Michael Mette]

Steve Culver, on 02 March 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Hi Michael,

I've been researching damascus gun barrels for the last few years. Testing a barrel section to see if it will harden is a good idea. But, probably less than 25% of damascus barrels will have enough carbon to make a decent knife blade.

Many damascus barrels were made of low carbon steels; compared to knife blade steel. Thousands of barrels were made from scrap steel, or a mix of new and scrap steels. Some were made by dumping horse shoe nail stubs (used nails pulled from horse's hooves) into a puddle of molten iron. The steel derived from this process being called Stub Damascus.

Unless your friend knows a lot about damascus barrels, he won't know which ones will be likely to harden and which ones definitely will not. Knowledge of the place where the barrel was made, the time period of the barrel's manufacture and an understanding of the damascus pattern and how it was laid up into a billet can give a clue to the carbon content likely to be found in it. Otherwise, it is definitely a crap shoot and a lot of wasted time testing.

The only real possibility of using barrel damascus in a knife blade is maybe in San Mai construction; using the barrel steel over a carbon steel core.

If your friend has any old barrels that he would like to let go of, I would be interested in obtaining some from him for my research.

Steve, Thanks very much for the answer. I don't know this person, later he said that he was looking for someone to do the work but wanted to get into forging someday and wants to keep them to try it after he gets some exeperience. I will let him know about you wanting to research with some. I have a Damascus barreled antique pinfire shotgun, but it is not in sad enough shape to cut up and tinker with. It is a nice piece of German gunmaking history.

[Michael Mette]

Steve, No problem about the thread. I am pretty busy at my day job and I am trying to get my upcoming local Ducks Unlimited chapter event to be successful along with working on a knife for the event and trying to get underwriters to help pay for some of it. I am the Chairman this year. I learned quite a bit by reading what I have missed. Here is the thread where this started on Rimfire central http://www.rimfirece...d.php?t=437327. I am almost the only maker that forges on that forum.
You are very correct on the barrels being soldered together. I studied gunsmithing for a few years and am a collector.I've seen reblue jobs that have messed up the barrels like you described. The damascus twist barrels were made prior to the fluid steel barrels because they had no other way of making an affordable, lightweight barrel that didn't take two men and a young boy to pack through the field. I used to own a Blackpowder cartridge British Cape gun that was Damascus. It had 12 ga. and 4 bore barrels. The thing weighed around 14lbs and was muzzle heavy. The rifle barrel was the same diameter as the shotgun barrel. Thanks again for your help and information, Mike

[Steve Culver]

Hey Michael,

I've got a membership to Rimfirecentral, but it sounds like the gentleman is past considering barrel steel for a knife blade. I might post a comment there.

Man; I would love to have a chance to shoot a 4 bore rifle! I almost got to shoot a .600 Nitro Express, but the owner of the gun left the night before we were to meet and shoot the gun.

Good luck with your event!!

[Michael Mette]

Steve, Please post over there if you get the time, it would be nice to have a little back up...LOL I never got to shoot it. I just owned it for a few years. I couldn't find ammunition or brass to handload for it. It was a safe queen and I sold it to a guy on one of the gun auction sites this summer for double what I had paid for it. I always wanted to put just one round downrange out of it. I did take it and my two pinfire guns to the GRS school and Steve Dunn got to see them. They all had some nice engraving. I would love to shoot a .600 nitro or any of those big caliber classics. I am going to post the meat carving set I did for the Missouri DU state convention banquet in the gallery, if I can find the instructions on how to post on here.